All the things that we've been through, You should understand me like I understand you.
These are awkward times currently for everybody in Macedonia, or maybe I should say Republic of Macedonia, Republic of Skopje,
Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, New Macedonia, Upper Macedonia, Slavo-Macedonia, Nova Makedonija, Macedonia (Skopje), Vardar Republic, FYROM, Republika Makedonija–Skopje, Republika Makedonia or Republic of Skopje. The international community is now showing signs of caving in to the bully-boy tactics of Greece regarding Macedonia's name dispute. Currently, Macedonia wishes to officially name itself Republic of Macedonia, a stance which has been recognised by all of the former Yugoslav countries and world powers like Russia, China, the United States and the united Kingdom. Greece protests against this name, arguing that it implies claims upon the Greek Macedonian territories and the history which accompanies them and believes that the country can be called whatever it wishes so long as the name Macedonia is not included.
Until now there has generally been widespread support for Macedonia against the small minded Greek viewpoint. The interim name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is awkward and unwieldy, and as far back as 1993 the Danish Foreign Minister Uffe Ellemann-Jensen described the Greeks as being "ridiculous" in their behaviour. The tides have turned though and this week
Jaap de Hoop Scheffer the NATO Secretary General said that the onus must now lie with the Macedonians to make compromises if they wish to progress with their planned membership of the organisation. He argued that Greece has a strong history of good work within NATO whereas Macedonia is merely an aspiring member, and thus the Greek concerns must take precedence. Clearly this is a very dangerous path to go down, and had such an ethos based on longstanding institutions somehow having greater rights been followed in the Balkans in other situations then we would still see Milosevic ruling over Greater Serboslavia.
Greece fears that Macedonia is trying to gradually usurp Hellenic territory through the use of symbolism. One must remember though that Macedonia was previously known in official
circles as Southern Serbia until Tito took to work with making a Macedonian national conscience more widespread outside of academic and revolutionary circles. Today that national conscience exists in reality, as shown for example in the national grief at the death of Toše Proeski who was very much a figurehead in the country. For Greece to try and undo more that 60 years of development for purely selfish reasons against the Macedonians in nothing short of childish and impossible.
It would be wrong to say that Macedonia has always been sensitive to Greek concerns though. The country's original flag featured the Macedonian Vergina sun on a red background, identical to the Greek flag of Macedonia which is set on a blue background. This is a symbol of ancient Macedon that was ruled over by Alexander the Great, and the territory of the Macedon state is almost exclusively in modern-day Greece, with more act
ually found in Albania than Macedonia. Macedonia changed its flag to a more abstract design but has courted controversy recently by renaming Skopje's airport after Alexander the Great. Given that Alexander the Great died in 323BC and the Slavs only arrived in the Balkans during the 6th Century this seems somewhat anachronistic. There are, after all, plenty of famous Macedonians who have lived during the existence of the modern Macedonian entity, Darko Pančev and Toše Proeski being two examples as well as the ethnically Albanian Mother Teresa who was born in Skopje.
Complaints against Greece lie primarily in the pettiness of its arguments. Greece's borders are firm and certainly not likely to be crossed by an invading army of Macedonians who are focus
ed on charming the West rather than irritating it as they seek NATO and EU membership. One example of the all too common cases in which Greece has been pointlessly stubborn can be seen in where the Macedonian seat should be placed in the United Nations. Macedonia, as is understandable, wished to sit with other countries that have names beginning with M, Greece caused a fuss though and said that Macedonia must be placed under F in accordance with Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Fearing that this would imply a permanent acceptance of this interim name the Macedonians refused and a compromise was reached whereby Macedonia would sit next to Thailand as The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Needless to say, the United States and the United Kingdom are both placed under U rather than T.
Given the current instability which looms over the entire Balkan region, it seems highly i
rresponsible of the Greeks, as a relatively affluent country, to try and hinder the progress of Macedonia, a poor but democratically aspiring country which unlike Serbia wishes to bring itself closer to the West and encourages stability. Greek opposition is likely to infuriate Macedonian nationalists and this in turn could lead to a repeat of the bloody clashes that occurred in 2001 against the republic's Albanian minority. It seems that it is time for Greece to step down from its pedestal and start playing a more responsible and mature role in the region, something which for sometime it has tried to avoid as it promotes itself as a Mediterranean nation rather than being part of the Balkans. Out of defiance maybe Macedonia can ask for Greece to be forced to change its name to The Former Ottoman Hellenic Republic of Athens?
Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, New Macedonia, Upper Macedonia, Slavo-Macedonia, Nova Makedonija, Macedonia (Skopje), Vardar Republic, FYROM, Republika Makedonija–Skopje, Republika Makedonia or Republic of Skopje. The international community is now showing signs of caving in to the bully-boy tactics of Greece regarding Macedonia's name dispute. Currently, Macedonia wishes to officially name itself Republic of Macedonia, a stance which has been recognised by all of the former Yugoslav countries and world powers like Russia, China, the United States and the united Kingdom. Greece protests against this name, arguing that it implies claims upon the Greek Macedonian territories and the history which accompanies them and believes that the country can be called whatever it wishes so long as the name Macedonia is not included.
Until now there has generally been widespread support for Macedonia against the small minded Greek viewpoint. The interim name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is awkward and unwieldy, and as far back as 1993 the Danish Foreign Minister Uffe Ellemann-Jensen described the Greeks as being "ridiculous" in their behaviour. The tides have turned though and this week
Jaap de Hoop Scheffer the NATO Secretary General said that the onus must now lie with the Macedonians to make compromises if they wish to progress with their planned membership of the organisation. He argued that Greece has a strong history of good work within NATO whereas Macedonia is merely an aspiring member, and thus the Greek concerns must take precedence. Clearly this is a very dangerous path to go down, and had such an ethos based on longstanding institutions somehow having greater rights been followed in the Balkans in other situations then we would still see Milosevic ruling over Greater Serboslavia.Greece fears that Macedonia is trying to gradually usurp Hellenic territory through the use of symbolism. One must remember though that Macedonia was previously known in official
circles as Southern Serbia until Tito took to work with making a Macedonian national conscience more widespread outside of academic and revolutionary circles. Today that national conscience exists in reality, as shown for example in the national grief at the death of Toše Proeski who was very much a figurehead in the country. For Greece to try and undo more that 60 years of development for purely selfish reasons against the Macedonians in nothing short of childish and impossible.
It would be wrong to say that Macedonia has always been sensitive to Greek concerns though. The country's original flag featured the Macedonian Vergina sun on a red background, identical to the Greek flag of Macedonia which is set on a blue background. This is a symbol of ancient Macedon that was ruled over by Alexander the Great, and the territory of the Macedon state is almost exclusively in modern-day Greece, with more act
ually found in Albania than Macedonia. Macedonia changed its flag to a more abstract design but has courted controversy recently by renaming Skopje's airport after Alexander the Great. Given that Alexander the Great died in 323BC and the Slavs only arrived in the Balkans during the 6th Century this seems somewhat anachronistic. There are, after all, plenty of famous Macedonians who have lived during the existence of the modern Macedonian entity, Darko Pančev and Toše Proeski being two examples as well as the ethnically Albanian Mother Teresa who was born in Skopje.Complaints against Greece lie primarily in the pettiness of its arguments. Greece's borders are firm and certainly not likely to be crossed by an invading army of Macedonians who are focus
ed on charming the West rather than irritating it as they seek NATO and EU membership. One example of the all too common cases in which Greece has been pointlessly stubborn can be seen in where the Macedonian seat should be placed in the United Nations. Macedonia, as is understandable, wished to sit with other countries that have names beginning with M, Greece caused a fuss though and said that Macedonia must be placed under F in accordance with Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Fearing that this would imply a permanent acceptance of this interim name the Macedonians refused and a compromise was reached whereby Macedonia would sit next to Thailand as The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Needless to say, the United States and the United Kingdom are both placed under U rather than T.Given the current instability which looms over the entire Balkan region, it seems highly i
rresponsible of the Greeks, as a relatively affluent country, to try and hinder the progress of Macedonia, a poor but democratically aspiring country which unlike Serbia wishes to bring itself closer to the West and encourages stability. Greek opposition is likely to infuriate Macedonian nationalists and this in turn could lead to a repeat of the bloody clashes that occurred in 2001 against the republic's Albanian minority. It seems that it is time for Greece to step down from its pedestal and start playing a more responsible and mature role in the region, something which for sometime it has tried to avoid as it promotes itself as a Mediterranean nation rather than being part of the Balkans. Out of defiance maybe Macedonia can ask for Greece to be forced to change its name to The Former Ottoman Hellenic Republic of Athens?
13 thoughts:
Does this mean you saw the two-page ad in the Times today...?
Catherine,
No, I can't say that I read the Times, what was it about?
This was more of a personal post since I'm very fond of Macedonia and somewhat fed up with Greece being a bully to a far more fragile country.
Take care,
Ed.
I certainly agree there. Greeks are even distributing books in English to other Europeans, denouncing the "sneaky attitude " of Skopje and accusing Macedonia to hide its so called expansionism over Greece. It is completely ridiculous and nobody believes the crap they publish, but they can veto stuff in the EU if they want to and they are known to be intransigent and nationalistic. The Cyprus story is also a good example.
Great post--love the closing line!
It's a ridiculous argument that Greece should get precedence because of seniority--to reduce this situation to a personal level, shouldn't the party with seniority be expected to act with more propriety and maturity? It's a bit much to allow Greece to behave irresponsibly and against the interests of regional stability and peace because of its prior membership in an organization dedicated to regional peace and stability.
Ed: I'm with you on this ridiculous naming situation in Macedonia. Greece is acting like a spoiled brat and school yard bully. And to have the absurd argument that Greece should take precedence because they are more senior is total B.S. I expect better behavior from Greek government officials, but maybe they learned some of this bad behavior from our idiot President George Bush, or were inspired by former bad leaders in the former Yugoslavia.
It's time to get on with life and Greece needs to quit their whining.
Marti in Idaho
It seems to be long-term national policy in Greece to make their country into a laughing stock in the War over the Name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
why is it stupid this former Yugoslav province of Macedonia has no right to the name or history of the Greek Macedonia.If there are arguments against state historical facts let me know because yugoslav so called Macedonians are southern Serbs res my case.
Anon,
Macedonian culture has far more in common with Bulgarian culture than that of Serbia, so to state that the people there are Southern Serbs because of a political name imposed upon them in the previous century shows a clear ignorance to the subject. Further relations between Macedonians and Bulgarians can be seen in the structure of IMRO, originally a pro-Bulgarian organisation which then split into different elements, some favouring Macedonia uniting with Bulgaria and other with it having independence/autonomy due to its unique character.
Anybody who has looked at the Macedonian national identity, let alone visited towns like Ohrid and Skopje, can see that the Macedonians are a distinct people, no longer tied to their past rulers from Bulgaria or Serbia. Their language has developed and their church, another vital piece of national identity, is (albeit disputedly) autocepholous. Whether this conscience was given firm grounding only after the Second World War is not relevant, since the time at which it occured should have no bearing on its tangiability. There certainly is no law that says a nation must wait at least 200 or 500 years before it is allowed to be recognised. For the Greeks to tryand tell the self identifying Macedonians that they are actually not Macedonians is ilogical and flawed, and moreover arrogant.
Take care,
Ed.
The dispute over the name of Macedonia began in 1946 when the People's Republic of Macedonia was established as part of Yugoslavia and escalated when the republic announced independence in 1991.
Greece has demonstrated its desire to reach a solution that will lead to the full normalisation of bilateral relations, facilitate the course of its neighbour towards the Euro-Atlantic institutions, and consolidate stability and cooperation in Balkan region.
BUT
Yet, FYROM continues to provoke Greece, usurping history which has been Hellenic for thousands of years, while FYROM refuses to negotiate in good faith over the name issue. Unfortunately, actions over the years such as distortion of geographic maps, naming its airport "Alexander the Great," revisionist textbooks in schools, and inflammatory comments by top government officials, encourages new generations in FYROM to cultivate hostile sentiments against Greece. Further, this continuing systematic government policy will hinder FYROM's accession to both the EU and NATO. This is the real threat to stability in the Balkans, to the detriment of EU and NATO interests.
I'm from greece and i don't see FYROM as the bad. The point is that you and me see the thinks from different points. that's called propaganda. I don't think that your descendance if from alexander the great.
i just want to give you some links that i think that are objective with no nationalistic
the first is from a political show in greece that is doing a research about FYROM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWIKDhhTvnU
this is about gligorov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEWojHzP8dw
and these are from wikipedia about Alexander the great
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella
You are so obviously biased that I wonder if my writing here is of any worth. The truth is that even if FYROM did not have expansionist views, no one in Greece would accept their using the name Macedonia. Simply because the emotional ties of Greeks and Greece with this name are too strong. If FYROMians have a right to the name because they've used it for 60 years, what about Greeks who have been using it for 2500 years? I mean, even discussing the issue is ridiculous. There are millions of names among which they can choose, leave Macedonia to true Macedons. Republika Vardarska sounds great to me!
Sorry, but you must either have a personal problem with Greece, be completely brainwashed by slav-macedonian propaganda or be plain dumm not to get it.
The simple issue is: Macedonia is a region, like the Balkans. Greek Macedonians live in a much larger(over 50%) area of historic Macedonia, are more than slav macedonians and have a much stronger historical presence there, i.e. they were there since ancient times, while slav macedonians
have been there only in the last 1400 years or so.
Since they have also been
in the Balkans for 1400 years or so, why not call themselves "Balkan nation"? Well, because so are
the Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs, Greeks, Romanians, Croats and so on.
Why not call themselves "republic of Europe"? They are in Europe, after all!
So, if you are going to critisize Greece for not allowing the identity of some 2,5 million greek macedonians to be stolen, you should openly state that you find nothing wrong with any European country calling itself the European nation or republic of Europe.
So to anonymous, what exactly is the bullying about? Slav macedonia is saying "if you don't do what I want, I'll hold my breath till I choke". Well, this is not an
acceptable behavior in international politics.
Do you have any reasonable explanation why Fyrom cannot accept a name like "slav macedonia", "slavoalbanian macedonia", or anything else that would allow them to call themselves macedonians but also recognize that they are not the only macedonians??
And if you say it is clear that "Macedonians" are southern Serbs, how do you describe fyrom's brainwashing its population to think they are the only true macedonians, hailing from Alexander?
alphast, I do not understand your Cyprus example-what exactly is different there than Sadam Husseins annexation of Kuwait?-, but the fact is that slav macedonia is brainwashing its citizens with extremely stupid theories: that they hail from Alexander, that greeks come from subsaharan africa, that greece stole their land, that greeks oppress the "macedonians" in greece and so on. This only breeds conflict. Let me remind you that
2 years ago not a n entire "small, poor counttry", but actually just a fanatical political party of that small country(Lebanon) started a war with a bigger and much stronger neighbor.
kirk johnson, what do you mean seniority? In NATO? On the contrary, when you want to join a club, the first rule is not to insult its members. These are the people who are expected to risk life and limb to save you after all. No club allows prospective joiners to insult its members.
What exactly do you expect Greece to do when fyrom says: I do not recognize the right of 1/4 of your population to call themselves macedonians. What would the US do if Stalin in 1945 had renamed Siberia "soviet Socialist republic of Alaska" and today that republic wanted to join nato as "Alaska", talk about the Alaskan nation and
oppressed Alaskans in the US?
Sorry, but you must either have a personal problem with Greece, be completely brainwashed by slav-macedonian propaganda or be plain dumm not to get it.
The simple issue is: Macedonia is a region, like the Balkans. Greek Macedonians live in a much larger(over 50%) area of historic Macedonia, are more than slav macedonians and have a much stronger historical presence there, i.e. they were there since ancient times, while slav macedonians
have been there only in the last 1400 years or so.
Since they have also been
in the Balkans for 1400 years or so, why not call themselves "Balkan nation"? Well, because so are
the Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs, Greeks, Romanians, Croats and so on.
Why not call themselves "republic of Europe"? They are in Europe, after all!
So, if you are going to critisize Greece for not allowing the identity of some 2,5 million greek macedonians to be stolen, you should openly state that you find nothing wrong with any European country calling itself the European nation or republic of Europe.
So to anonymous, what exactly is the bullying about? Slav macedonia is saying "if you don't do what I want, I'll hold my breath till I choke". Well, this is not an
acceptable behavior in international politics.
Do you have any reasonable explanation why Fyrom cannot accept a name like "slav macedonia", "slavoalbanian macedonia", or anything else that would allow them to call themselves macedonians but also recognize that they are not the only macedonians??
And if you say it is clear that "Macedonians" are southern Serbs, how do you describe fyrom's brainwashing its population to think they are the only true macedonians, hailing from Alexander?
alphast, I do not understand your Cyprus example-what exactly is different there than Sadam Husseins annexation of Kuwait?-, but the fact is that slav macedonia is brainwashing its citizens with extremely stupid theories: that they hail from Alexander, that greeks come from subsaharan africa, that greece stole their land, that greeks oppress the "macedonians" in greece and so on. This only breeds conflict. Let me remind you that
2 years ago not a n entire "small, poor counttry", but actually just a fanatical political party of that small country(Lebanon) started a war with a bigger and much stronger neighbor.
kirk johnson, what do you mean seniority? In NATO? On the contrary, when you want to join a club, the first rule is not to insult its members. These are the people who are expected to risk life and limb to save you after all. No club allows prospective joiners to insult its members.
What exactly do you expect Greece to do when fyrom says: I do not recognize the right of 1/4 of your population to call themselves macedonians. What would the US do if Stalin in 1945 had renamed Siberia "soviet Socialist republic of Alaska" and today that republic wanted to join nato as "Alaska", talk about the Alaskan nation and
oppressed Alaskans in the US?
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